Dark Theurgy OP Checks and balances

[Kira]

If they get to sit back and attack from the safety of their hiding spot then we should be able to send a sidhe to attack humans.

Isn't there suppose to be a counter to everything? You can't be free from that power no matter what you do. Fadewalk, nope, it gets you.

Block powers for 2 hours, eh. Remember when everyone thought that was an OP?

[Tierney]

Dark Theurgy is countered by the fact that sorcerer/paladin characters cannot track and mindblocks stop them from using it as demonstrated earlier. I believe turn blood and projected depression, as they can be done long distance and from the comfort of their own homes, as well as curse and curse spirit. The closest thing they do have is vampire hunter which is a completely random location, done over and over again to get to potential vampire that they're looking for and hope it isn't a decoy (which, is in one particular case, how we found Kira).

There's also the anima cap in place. I have a cap of 20. That means I can use DT up to 5 times a day, assuming I haven't used rock skin which makes Tierney or her healing ability. We have to use it strategically and hope that it'll scare a character out of hiding by chance, go to a safe place and go live with them earlier, like we did with you after our characters were mindblocked.

Dark Theurgy isn't supposed to cause critical hits, Kira was killed when an old fix from 2013 came into play and a count of a seventeen wounds created an auto crit and sent her to the shadow realm.

From the dual class page:

Using one of your physical weapons, attack any vampire no matter where they are. Cannot cause critical hits.

[Ephraim Steele]

Hooo, boy, I've been waiting for this.

So you want to talk checks and balances? Let's talk checks and balances.

Human characters have access to one Path. Two, if they choose to bridge to another and pick up an extra power, which not everyone wants to do. Dark Theurgy is only available to those that choose to sacrifice any other one time option and go the Sorcerer/Paladin bridge. One power. One bridge. One option. Vampires, however, have access to six, count them, six Paths, and a bridge between each, with five powers per bridge in opposition to a human's one power. Not to mention access to Six Paths' worth of masteries, as opposed to a human's two, when and if the time ever arises that someone has like a billion PXP to spend.

Vampires have the Eye Spy and Triangulation power, as well as the only means of defending against it, which humans have no counter for, and no answer to, aside from blowing 35 Anima a day for a long list of random vampires that they don't have any need for, and expending their entire power pool looking for a target, or trekking the entire city using the only skill, available to everyone, and hoping that tracking pulls through for once, which it rarely ever does, but it's all we've got.

Vampires have Curse, which is not only an attack from wherever you wish, but also completely anonymous at rank 2. You can instigate a conflict without anyone ever even knowing you were the one to cause it. Humans have no such option whatsoever. If they want to smack someone, the target's going to know who it was.

Vampires can cross water with two powers, which humans only have one, and only, again if you sacrifice your one choice of a bridge for Sorcerer, or started on that Path.

Vampires can summon Spirits for resources, Sidhe to attack, Wraiths to track and scout, Fadebeast to stand guard over an area, and again, available to all with enough time. Humans have one power, the Treyonetic Wolf, once again only available if you totally sacrifice your other one-time choice and go Sorcerer/Blood Thief, an option not even available to Paladins at all in any capacity, so that leaves me 100% out of a neat-*** RP option and a power with some use. Though I can get a vampire thrall, which is nice, and its own sort of balance between the options available to my character. The list of powers and effects that are vampire exclusive goes on and on and on and on.

Vampires have full and total access to over 100 powers, some buffs, some debuffs, some heals, some damaging attacks, some only useful against NPC's, but it's a massive cry from a bridged human's 20, even more from the double-downed's 11. The only human that can do that is a Blood Thief that's doubled down, and therefore gave up their option for bridging to either Path and loses out on any other power. In fact, without the powers they've stolen, Blood Thieves have nothing at all beyond the ability to steal those powers, but, Blood Thieves don't even have access to Dark Theurgy, so again, its own kind of balance in limitation among humans.

There are plenty of things going against humans, and a mountain of obstacles between them and doing what they are supposed to do. [i.e. a Paladin being a vampire hunter. Having an equal footing on a PVP based perspective.] Playing as a team and being strategic is vastly more important to a human faction than it is to a Vampire faction, simply because of the number of options available to vampires and the number of vampires in the game, versus the human population. When creating a new character for a human faction, the questions of What does the faction need? What do I need to play? is much, much less an option of, 'play what you want, you can pick up the power we need later,' or, 'don't worry about it, so-and-so already has that role covered with xyz power,' and much more an issue of, 'we absolutely must have this Path, taking this bridge, and if you can't do that, then you're largely redundant.' As much as one may like or dislike this one power, they have one against many that can be slung right back at them.

[Amalea]

[[Mod Note: The discussion on Alt Linking has been split off and can be found here for further posting on the subject.]]

[Mortll]

yeah Vampires can do all those things and we have limits ... but when you have no retaliation on a attack its a little imbalanced all Kira is asking for is a chance to retaliate not something crazy .... and when you have a power where someone can loose limbs and 7 day wounds It is not fair that there is not that chance plain and simple.

[Dex]

As the player of a human character who spent years suffering anomymous attacks from vampires that couldn't be retaliated against, turnabout seems like fair play to me. I seem to remember Raise Vampire being completely anonymous, and that was when not having someone's identity meant you just couldn't attack them at all.

Also, y'know, everything the pallies said. If this one anonymous power is a problem, then they all are.

[Mortll]

Ok then limit the power like ours is not to many people loosing limbs and stuff from just power hits .

Usually just 2 -3 day wounds . They are landing 7 day wounds left and right ... If i had a power like that id never track again ... have to find anyone again ... have to do anything again but push a button it must be nice .

Curse doesn't kill ... you have to physically be in the square for most any other powers that give wounds ... you can sap energy or hit their stats a little but you are not going to get a 7 day wound from vampire powers unless you are physically there with the target .

And i have a character with this power and have used it ... I KNOW Its overpowered .

[Tierney]

Then the vampire masteries need to be revisited, because by default none of them are capable of being blocked and they're OP. The telepathic masteries cannot be blocked. You'll still be tracked with alter ego in place. Shadows are able to walk through walls and various other things. Allurists will no longer be attacked by the thralls of others. Mystics will set your character on fire.

As it was said, human characters get at the most 27 powers. David likely has already applied checks and balances when making all of the dual classes in place - especially given the fact an entire group constantly complained that human characters were OP both as pure bloods as well as when classes came out.

Vampires can easily take human characters down, they're extremely easy to track down, so why don't players try to? I was actually pretty excited when Kira hit back, and I was hoping to see Mortll in action when I saw that you were tracking her via Ichno.

[Mortll]

Ha why would Mortll try to fight back when its something she cannot stop or retaliate against other than physically tracking them down She was already attacked for a appraisal. And again for no obvious reason other than sitting with her friends .

Why would i offer her up as the next one killed ... all i can say is she does have a long memory and a vindictive nature.

[Zodiac]

I remember when Pi's player always launched a major beef anytime a relic or something gave a human even a small advantage over a vampire which was the stupidest thing I ever heard of. If the human/non immortal chars have no way to effectively fight back, then what is the point of being one in the game? We should all just be vampires like in RB and be stupid. The fact humans have a chance here is one of the perks of this game over others in my view. Yes, people like Dex and others suffered in the beginning of Path but things got better over time.

Now, with that said-

For playing humans, they sure seem to have a vampire attitude over things. 'Because I can' is a totally lame assed excuse. Is there a RP or Grid reason to keep chopping someone up while in hiding? If so, please point it out with proof, but if not it's just the same bully tactics human players have complained about in the beginning. It did not sit well with me in the beginning and this certainly don't get a thumbs up from me now. What happens when your targets finally corner you and beat the crap out of yours? Cry foul? Vamps bulling humans again? No no no, in this you would have brought a beat down on your own heads so if (and when) it happens don't you dare cry foul.

This game was (supposed) to work both ways and with current events in the general story such things that suggest humans are upping their game to be able to keep themselves safe makes perfect sense. Someone said about 'never fail' vamp attacks, but the majority of them usually affect other vampires only. Does 'Theurgy' affect all types or just vampires?

One said they could use this power 5 times a day. On the same target? That is a hellava right hook you have there. Most vamps can only use their powers once on a target, unless they move. So I can see the allure of hiding somewhere and constantly beating the crap out of someone with zero risk of getting hit in return but its a cowards game at best. Again, if there is RP or Grid reasons behind this, then perhaps it is justified.

But 'Because I can'?

Keeping it a never miss power might be a good thing, but adjusting the odds that you always get a limb removed for your efforts should be adjusted.