dArtois Faction Fight - April 2017

[Prudence]

[url=http://www.mooncalfstudios.com/pathofth ... 14&t=28987]

Just to be clear. From my POV, dArtois handed over the Territory without a fight.

That's not what I'm hearing here, Chloe. "Without a fight," implies no one died/showed up/there was no fight.

And honestly, if she didn't like something that they did, why did SHE not bother to pm them instead of once again coming to a public forum and expressing her unhappiness? Has SHE collaborated with anyone herself, or is it all up to the other side to take the initiative? It's a two way street in the rp world, no?

Add in the fact that we've been told Pi wasn't even in HR to begin with oocly. So, how again are we supposed to play this? Was pi there or no? Memories say otherwise. Or did we go to Paris or wherever she was and kill her there? I'd really like to know how to play my character since I can't seem to be able to do that anymore.

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[Amalea]

You're essentially saying that if a player isn't around and their character gets killed, then the reasonable thing to do is never roleplay as it happening, even though it has. If someone decided to hit and hospitalize Lea... it's happened, that's not going to change just because I wasn't around. It'd be like saying, back when force turning was a thing...that if someone had force turned Lea, that I reject that turning and plan to continue playing her as human.

This entire "debacle" should have never been posted to the forum. It's easy enough to find the name of a faction leader and it should have all been done via PM from the get go (ie - when the challenge was issued).

Honestly, I'd really like to get David's opinion on this as it seems to be the only way it's going to be settled once and for all.

[Mortll]

I think the primary point is that Puawai wasn't consulted, regardless of what she'd already said here.

Roleplay is about collaboration and communication. Path is now supposed to be roleplay-centric which, as was confirmed back in one of the discussion threads about Blood of the Vampire, means that roleplay > grid, and grid shouldn't always dictate roleplay.

While yes, I do agree that if someone dies on grid then they should die in roleplay -- some grid things should definitely still be taken into account, otherwise there's no point to it -- the argument here is that BOTH sides should have a say in how it went down, agreements made, so everyone's story is kosher and no one's character is being forced to accept something as happening a certain way when the player may have had other ideas. Again, it's about communication.

There were OOC circumstances here that should have alerted the other players that some discussion might be required in regards to IC RP ramifications. Given no communication, it'd be easy enough for Puawai to say that Pi surrendered the territory without argument, peacefully, and Voodoo Dragons killed her without provocation. If that's how Voodoo want to be seen -- undiplomatic and unmerciful -- then I suppose that's how they'll be seen.

Mortll -- that last part she said 'you can assume no one came' and make up whatever you like. Meaning. No one came, no one was killed.

That's how I'm reading this.

She chose to discuss it here. She even defended discussing it here.

I doubt anyone else will see Voodoo the way you described because well they actually held a discussion with Mortll and actually negotiated with her. Besides it wouldn't be the first time shes been labled by people that don't understand her or bother to talk to her .

[Pi dArtois]

She chose to discuss it here. She even defended discussing it here.

I will always negotiate situations likes this in public when it involves players I rarely speak to about RP/grid. This is my specific mode of handling things because it gives what I believe are three very important outcomes;

a) It ensures transparency;
b) It informs the most people across all interests, and;
c) Also gives an opportunity for the proof for change if change is appropriate.

The one potential outcome from this discussion is a suggestion to David to include a 'forfeit' option in Territory battles.

And I'm really glad I talked about this in a public thread, seems there are lessons to be learned here from all sides, and was certainly a learning curve for me.

[Lancaster]

If the only IC reasoning for Pi's death is that she surrendered the territory, I'm not sure how else it can be seen?

I am trying to see this from both sides. I can understand why Pi posted this publicly (as she's mentioned above) but can see how a one on one PM might also have sufficed. Perhaps the result of all this should be that in regards to territory battles, the teams who have been challenged should have a 'surrender' option, if there is absolutely no other option but for the leader to be pulled in and killed. It's a grid mechanic that should probably be fiddled with in order to align more with RP incidents. None of us could have foreseen where IC was going to go when d'Artois chose to win the QZ way back when. We couldn't know the future, so we couldn't say "Let's not, because it's not going to work in two years time when Pi's in Paris and Lancaster has lost his memory".

What I'm hoping to encourage is communication between players rather than argument, which would apply to everyone involved. Some think it should have been done privately while others think public works best -- doesn't matter which, so long as there's communication. The fact this was posted publicly doesn't deny that Pi had initiated communication.

That's not what I'm hearing here, Chloe. "Without a fight," implies no one died/showed up/there was no fight.

I was speaking from my own POV. If Lancaster were coherent and had his memories and was there to witness any of this, and if Voodoo were sticking to the story that Pi was there and they killed her, then he'd assume they were undiplomatic because she -- as said by Pi in the very first thread -- surrendered the territory, gave it up. Which I would presume is without a fight. That's the definition of surrender.

But yes, Amalea -- I do agree that David should weigh in, and perhaps the result of all this should be a clarification of rules regarding roleplay and grid and how they work together/what should come first. Unfortunately I don't think it's all so very black and white and rules might be hard to create. I'm not saying that if a person is killed on grid than it shouldn't be acknowledged IC, I'm saying that if they're killed then that player should be contacted before any IC RP is done to describe said kill. The player of the killed character should have some input on how it went down.

[Mortll]

If the only IC reasoning for Pi's death is that she surrendered the territory, I'm not sure how else it can be seen?

I am trying to see this from both sides. I can understand why Pi posted this publicly (as she's mentioned above) but can see how a one on one PM might also have sufficed. Perhaps the result of all this should be that in regards to territory battles, the teams who have been challenged should have a 'surrender' option, if there is absolutely no other option but for the leader to be pulled in and killed. It's a grid mechanic that should probably be fiddled with in order to align more with RP incidents. None of us could have foreseen where IC was going to go when d'Artois chose to win the QZ way back when. We couldn't know the future, so we couldn't say "Let's not, because it's not going to work in two years time when Pi's in Paris and Lancaster has lost his memory".

What I'm hoping to encourage is communication between players rather than argument, which would apply to everyone involved. Some think it should have been done privately while others think public works best -- doesn't matter which, so long as there's communication. The fact this was posted publicly doesn't deny that Pi had initiated communication.

That's not what I'm hearing here, Chloe. "Without a fight," implies no one died/showed up/there was no fight.

I was speaking from my own POV. If Lancaster were coherent and had his memories and was there to witness any of this, and if Voodoo were sticking to the story that Pi was there and they killed her, then he'd assume they were undiplomatic because she -- as said by Pi in the very first thread -- surrendered the territory, gave it up. Which I would presume is without a fight. That's the definition of surrender.

But yes, Amalea -- I do agree that David should weigh in, and perhaps the result of all this should be a clarification of rules regarding roleplay and grid and how they work together/what should come first. Unfortunately I don't think it's all so very black and white and rules might be hard to create. I'm not saying that if a person is killed on grid than it shouldn't be acknowledged IC, I'm saying that if they're killed then that player should be contacted before any IC RP is done to describe said kill. The player of the killed character should have some input on how it went down.

Where did you read that anyone described a Kill .... No one did . People are assuming things.
In Mortlls rp She said she had a battle for the QZ.... and she said she had Pis finger in a box .

There is a implication that she might have ... killed her but it was never stated ... Nor was it clarified if she was telling the truth or lying .
She may have cut it off in the fight or she might have handed Doc a bag ladies finger and told him it was hers You don't know .
It was all implied and People made assumptions on that implication.
Like I said you can interpret how you want I stand by my RP

[Lancaster]

I think that's how this will be ruled, in the end, and how things have been ruled in the past. Just because a character says something is so IC doesn't mean it's the word of law, and interpretations are allowed to be made.

Long story short, I think, is that the 'forfeit' option needs to be considered to avoid confusion in the future. :)

[Doc]

My character was not involved in the territory fight.

My character received, a body part, that was said to be Pi's. Maybe it is .. maybe it isn't. Except .. that he checked Pi's Memories.. and found out.. it probably is.

But from my point of view, and my characters; me the human reader.. The death happened.

There are memories of it. Doc read them. I read them.

04.10.17 Voodoo Dragons beat Canidae d`Artois in the Quarantine Zone Stronghold territorial battle. Though you lost, you gained 200 experience points from the attempt.
04.10.17 Prudence killed you in a skirmish attack! You are now stuck in the shadow realm until you can find a way back to the realm of the living.
04.10.17 Mortll used their Confuse 2 power on you, but you resisted!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Azraeth , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Azraeth , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked and wounded by Prudence !
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Amalea (human) , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 Azraeth used their Burning Touch 2 power on you, but you resisted!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Mortll , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Prudence , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Azraeth , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked and wounded by Mortll !
04.10.17 Prudence used their Confuse 2 power on you, but you resisted!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Prudence , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Azraeth , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked by Azraeth , but you avoided their attack!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked and wounded by Azraeth !
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked and wounded by Mortll !
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked and wounded by Prudence !
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked and wounded by Mortll !
04.10.17 Prudence used their Harmful Illusion 2 power on you, but you resisted!
04.10.17 You were attacked by Azraeth , who used their Poison 2 power on you!
04.10.17 You were skirmish attacked and wounded by Mortll !

There are also other characters' firsthand accounts of it.

If Pi the character wants to pretend she wasn't killed. That is fair. Those that killed her, and know that they killed her, will most likely think she's lost it in the head.

Rp is done from a character's perception. Doc perceives Pi died, because he read her memories of her death.

It is not godmodding for him to have that belief. It is perception.

[Azraeth]

I will be honest in saying I was very reticent to post here, because I come from the school of thought where you handle these things quickly and in private. That being said, I understand why Puawai might have wanted it in public.

To me, it seems like what's really being harped on is communication. To Puawai, it seems like VD members are doing things with her character without consulting her. To VD players, it seemed (originally) like Puawai gave the go ahead to do whatever they wanted with phrases like "Whatever you like. I'm Easy". Therefor, VD players didn't think an additional layer of communication was needed, especially with the grid events backing up the death and Killer corpses remaining after death (unless Pi has Pathfinder potentially?).

Anyway, I don't necessarily think anyone is in the wrong here. Boundaries just need to be very clearly set.

Thus...

I'd be interested to know exactly what you (Puawai) would be comfortable with. Clarify your position on what happened with Pi, and hopefully that can lead to resolution. I mention that because even if David puts in a forfeit option, that doesn't fix a currently borked situation.

I would personally like to find a way to smooth all of this over because I don't think anyone on either side is a 'bad player' or anything like that.

[Pi dArtois]

Josh, the ultimate right is that there was an obvious misunderstanding. And instead of RPing that Pi surrendered the territory as I asked, knowing ooc there were logistic issues, Lora and Doc's writer RP'd Pi was killed. Despite all those items raised in the first three pages on this thread.

So they ignored these three pages, ignored the clear misunderstanding, ignored the ooc collaboration request I made about dArtois surrendering the territory without a fight, ignored everything in favour of doing what they wanted.

From that I can only assume They care more about writing RP about killing Pi and handing off body parts than being considerate of all of those things. And that's what I judge harshly.

I'll point you to the fact even David initially thought inactive characters were ejected from territory battles.

And NO ONE pointed that out as untrue until after Pi was killed. No one. So I went to work thinking the option I put forward was possible because none of you said anything prior to the fight going ahead that it wasn't possible.

And now you're Asking me to explain what the outcome im looking for is? Okay, I'll give it a go.

How about an RP where Pi doesn't die? One where she stands there and hands the territory over without a fight as I suggested? Ignore the grid, because the grid and Pi dying was obviously the result of a clusterfuck misunderstanding.

Voodoo gets their territory, and I get the RP outcome I requested two pages ago and we truly collaborate? That's the outcome RP wise that I believe is fair, where we all get what we expect. That's collaboration as I understand it to mean.