Offline AI vs griefing

[Gretchen (DELETED 9344)]

[4] No killing somebody over and over without provocation

Grief killing (killing somebody multiple times for no new real reason) is frowned upon. You can kill anyone you like in game, for any reason you want (characters are allowed to be douches), but doing it multiple times without a new reason each additional time is against the rules. This means that you cannot kill a character 3 times in a row because they attacked you once. Each kill requires a new provocation for it to be legal.

Decent reasons for killing a character would include retaliation for being attacked, in defense of an ally, in response to a serious roleplay insult, bounties, etc. You may kill a character for any other reason (or no reason at all), but doing it more than once in a row without provocation is considered bad form, and only serves to drive people out of the game.

The one exception to this rule is in the case of faction VS faction warfare. Where peace isn't made, the enemy doesn't have to wait to be hit before hitting back.

So is killing a character repeatedly bad form, or is it against the rules too? If griefing isn't allowed, but killing without reason (or a whole bunch of random, non-grid or rp transgression related reasons) is... how is it distiguishable from griefing? A paladin migh be inclined to kill any vampire, as many times as they deem it necessary, with the sole and constant reason being: they're a vampire and I'm a vapmire hunter. (Ideally there'd be roleplay to build up a story alongside grid actions, but not always.)

What about in light of the Offline AI system in which you can set it to automatically attack enemies upon sight, and might continue to attack / kill someone beyond the first altercation? Were is the line drawn?

[Birdee]

So, I'm confused a little bit at this post. But, I'm blonde and pregnant, so not hard to confuse.

Did someone kill your character while in AI offline?
Or are they attacking your character while they are offline?

The second part, well, I personally have very few enemies on my list, sans gideon cause of obvious reasons...but like gideon will never take some individuals off his AI settings of attack mode.

They are vampires.
They have attacked him a lot.
And even if a year goes by with no attack, he still will not because of the above reason. I think a few characters are like that. If it's just a wound, I don't see it as grieving, really. It means the character is leery of yours for reasons that are probably valid (tho I could be wrong). But if it's valid, then I can't blame them for having them on the list?

Doc has gideon on his list, but he's not touched him in ages, other than to test AI settings. And I'm okay with that. Doc dislikes paladins. Doc dislikes gideon for fair reasons. Doc should not trust gideon to be around by him.

[Gretchen (DELETED 9344)]

This isn't me going out of my way, tracking and attacking.
It's about where does griefing begin when one is set to attack enemies (while offline).

I've got no particular example (yet per se), but --

Gretchen attacks enemies on sight. She has attacked a particular vampire multiple times now - starting as a member of the militia last chapter and most recently as offline AI enemy attack (twice). My question is, if she keeps attacking this particular vampire whenever they cross her path, without any provocation other than them being a vampire she had bad blood with, is there a point where that becomes griefing?

Or, what about Varo Ricci? He threw the first punch months ago at CFB/CBF facility thing, and she recently relatiated and realmed him in December. She will likely attack him again if he crosses her path (since he is on her enemy list and she is set to automatically attack enemies). This will be even more likely if he has a shade going around attacking after he takes the cure. So when does that start being griefing? As a paladin who hunts vampires just for being vampires, how many times she can stomp on toes before it becomes rule breaking?

Like, you mention Doc hasn't touched Gideon in a while, but what if Gideon kept crossing his path, and Doc's offline AI / enemy settings kept having him attack / hospitalise Gideon. What would that be considered after the nth time? Is Gideon on Doc's list? Does Doc attack his enemies while Susan is offline? Do you two simply not cross each other's squares on grid whenever they are in the same area? How do you ensure that your character sticks to principle (IC) while trying not to grief (OOC)? I feel like this attack enemies offline is not compatible with the definition of griefing...

(But then, the definition of griefing itself confuses me since in the rules it says you can and cannot attack people for no particular reason however many times is canonically accurate. Or is that 'three' maximum rule apply, reason or no reason to kill?)

I hope I haven't made this more confusing.

[Roderic]

Like, you mention Doc hasn't touched Gideon in a while, but what if Gideon kept crossing his path, and Doc's offline AI / enemy settings kept having him attack / hospitalise Gideon. What would that be considered after the nth time? Is Gideon on Doc's list? Does Doc attack his enemies while Susan is offline? Do you two simply not cross each other's squares on grid whenever they are in the same area? How do you ensure that your character sticks to principle (IC) while trying not to grief (OOC)? I feel like this attack enemies offline is not compatible with the definition of griefing...

Well, for the first part, if Gideon keeps walking past doc and is being attacked due to offline settings, then that's on me/Gideon imo. Like, why keep going back for more? I consider that my own stupidity, frankly. And Gideon's. Case in point, Mona Mcgee kept swinging at Prudence, but she was with NPC's...she missed most atempts, got Prudence one one attempt. At that attempt, Prudence lashed out to attack. But, it was my own fault, imo. I wanted those NPC's, and since she missed the other times...figured whatever

If Doc is attacking Gideon, he must be on Doc's list. I'm pretty sure Doc is on Gideon's list. Doc has attacked enemies while offline, due to the AI settings. Gideon has not found Doc on grid yet-sans that one time when we tested AI stuff. So, we're keeping true to nature. When Gideon finds Doc, he'll attack him on sight. I expect the same to come from Doc. Only makes sense ic and principle wise.

I guess, if you (general) keep walking into someone clearly set to attack you, then it's your own fault and not griefing. But, if someone keeps killing your character for no real reason, then it's fair to question.

[Mooncalf]

Without having time to read the replies right now, I can answer the first post.

In the past we've said that if you've recently killed a character, and then you sentry / trap attack them, we'll look at the situation to see if we think the trap / character was placed there on purpose, to specifically target that character. If so, it would be potential griefing. It's very likely that we won't deem it intentional, though, as AI / traps are often laid for other targets.

[Gretchen (DELETED 9344)]

I guess, if you (general) keep walking into someone clearly set to attack you, then it's your own fault and not griefing. But, if someone keeps killing your character for no real reason, then it's fair to question.

That actually hella clarifies things. Thanks.

In the past we've said that if you've recently killed a character, and then you sentry / trap attack them, we'll look at the situation to see if we think the trap / character was placed there on purpose, to specifically target that character. If so, it would be potential griefing. It's very likely that we won't deem it intentional, though, as AI / traps are often laid for other targets.

So I'm assuming that the same premise applies to those you have attacked and/or killed already, but who might cross your character's path again (and again) therafter and get attacked / possibly killed (if they had prior wounds like Varo did, or have low defence stats). And like Becca pointed out, if they kept crossing your character's path, would that then be on them?

...unless, I guess, you left your character in a place where theirs had no way around and thus had to be swung at. And this could happen intentionally or accidentally.... so I guess what I'm conlcuding of all this is that the offline AI system requires some amount of ooc crossing to ensure you avoid those situations lest they become possible griefing...

[Alexandrea]

the whole idea of griefing is ooc when you come right down to it though, isn't it? Someone kills a charry over and over again, that's usually something personal between players.

I think you have the jest of this, tho. If you park in a place they can not avoid you then you are looking for trouble but if you are just going about your business and they chose to step into that square you are in, then it's on them. (So long as they can see you that is and you aren't using decoy)

[Mooncalf]

...unless, I guess, you left your character in a place where theirs had no way around and thus had to be swung at. And this could happen intentionally or accidentally....

Yeah exactly. The only time we'll suspect it might be intentional is when people surround individuals with traps or block a hallway, etc. Or just generally follow them around blocking the doorway out or something.

so I guess what I'm conlcuding of all this is that the offline AI system requires some amount of ooc crossing to ensure you avoid those situations lest they become possible griefing...[/justify]

It's never crossing to keep within the rules, really. But regardless, you're very unlikely to be suspected of griefing if you very rarely accidentally hit somebody with offline AI who you recently killed. So there's not really any need to censor your character's actions as long as you're not going after somebody you recently killed on purpose.

[Aden-OCarrol]

so if a character killed a particular character on the same day every like three months. Even killed other people in between them does that count as Griefing?

[Aden-OCarrol]

Lancaster, was really cold and answer that question for me while I was in chat. I appreciate answering the question for me and explaining why.